Also, my intent isn't to try to convince anyone of anything. Whatever anyone is comfortable believing is fine with me. My initial question was just asking what the "good part" of atheism is. I didn't understand it but I have a much better idea now.
paul from cleveland
JoinedPosts by paul from cleveland
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
But it is quite a leap from "Momma loves me" to "There's an invisible man in the sky, and he loves me too."
There isn't, and he doesn't.
The fact that love exists at all in this cold dark universe, even if it were just from my parents, is miraculous in itself. Don't you agree? This love lets me leave the door open to the possibility of a loving God. However, convincing arguments can be made either way. I think we just see what we want to see. It's possible that our mental filters just reject any evidence that contradicts our desired notion (including mine, of course).
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
get back to me on that "love" thing.
I don't think there is anything that could convince me that my parents don't love me.
If your wife and parents are claiming they love you, and they are giving evidence of it in the way the behave, it's a good bet they love you.
They way that people behave is not proof. For example, my wife could just be a "gold digger" acting like she loves me. To follow the "santa claus" line of reasoning, nobody loves me... since there's no proof that love exists. (by the way, I don't have a wife... just using that as an example)
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
Let me explain why the "santa claus" argument is nonsensical to me. Let's just apply it to a non-emotionally charged issue. Something we all believe in, even without proof. That is the love others have for us. The true motives of others can never be proven yet we all believe that someone in this god-forsaken world loves us, don't we? For example, I believe my parents love me but I can't prove it. I would even go so far as to say I know my parents love me. Would it be reasonable to say "I don't believe anyone loves me because I can't prove that love exists"? If I said "my wife loves me" would you say "no she doesn't because you can't prove that love exists therefore she doesn't... in fact, Paul, if you believe anyone loves you you may as well believe in the easter bunny!"? Of course not. So the "santa claus" argument doesn't convince me that my beliefs are false, rather, they indicate the biases of the person saying them. For example, if my friend had a bad relationship with his wife, I can sympathize with why he might not believe that my wife has love for me... but I won't believe him based on that. So, the way I see it, we all believe in the existence of something for which there is no proof. By one definition "God is Love" so, in one sense, we all already believe in God. If Love exists, and God is love, then God exists. That's all the proof I need.
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
Please don't hijack the thread. I'm making good progress in figuring things out for myself. (I've got to go to work now, I'll be back later.)
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
Many atheists don't believe in god in much the same way you don't believe in ghosts or the tooth fairy or santa claus. Do you think it is intellectually honest to say that since I cannot prove that santa doesn't exist I should say I don't know? The complete lack of any evidence for a fairy tale is considered sufficient to dismiss it, why not the fairy tale of theism too?
That's just a "straw man" argument. I mean Einstein was a theist (along the lines of Spinoza's ideas) so it's not a totally irrational position to me.
I think most Atheists would certainly be open to the possiblity of such a being if evidence were to emmerge.
That seems like a reasonable position.
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
my belief is that there is 'probably no god'
It's impossible to prove for certain, without any doubt
So far, no one who has posted has claimed to be a Gnostic atheist so that really makes us all some form of Agnostics. (according to HintofLimes chart on the first page of this thread)
People that believe that there is no God, or that believe that God is wicked and destructive and therefore should not be obeyed, tend to act without regard for God. Without God, they answer only to society and themselves. When they answer to themselves and society instead of a "higher cause", they tend to make better (and usually quicker) decisions. And, if they make a bad decision, they can reverse it more quickly without having to appeal to some Almighty God that is only going to confuse them even worse.
This comment relates to peoples actions. I'm not wondering about that. I'm wondering why it's not more appealing to just admit "I don't know" and leave the door cracked just a little bit. (since we're all some form of Agnostic anyway) Some form of hope for the possibility of something better rather than the belief that all that awaits us is old age, death, and the grave. Gone forever.
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
Do you believe that all of them *might* exist, or do you believe that 9,999 of them do not exist but one of them - the one your parents taught you about - *might* exist?
Besty, I just think there is probably "something" rather than "nothing" but I can't prove anything. We're both not 100% sure so we both believe in some form of Agnosticism.
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
Do you believe that all of them *might* exist, or do you believe that 9,999 of them do not exist but one of them - the one your parents taught you about - *might* exist?
I don't know. I'm an Agnostic Theist. I can't prove I'm right.
-
128
The upside of atheism
by paul from cleveland ini realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.
however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.
i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).
-
-
paul from cleveland
I guess it was Gnosticism that I didn't understand after all.